Stop Putin's war, Ukraine
Last 9 of March, with the coordination of Alejandro Bodart, The International Socialist League organized ainternational conversation with Oleg Vernyk, leader of the Ukrainian Socialist League, our section in that country, which is resisting the Russian invasion in the capital of kyiv. We share the transcript here.
Opening words of Alejandro Bodart: Oleg Vernyk is president of the independent Labor Protection Union and leader of the Ukrainian Socialist League, section of the LIS in Ukraine. It is a pleasure for us to be able to speak with him. Located in kyiv, in a very complex situation. We hope to be lucky and have the connection during the hour and a half that we have planned to be able to have first-hand as much information as possible about what is happening in Ukraine. There are many commentators, but the voice of the workers is not heard very often, and even less socialist workers like Oleg. Welcome Oleg!
we call to strengthen active actions of solidarity with the labor movement of Ukraine and: Many thanks to the colleagues of the International Socialist League for the opportunity to take part in this meeting. It is an enormous expression of solidarity and we greatly appreciate what the organization does in relation to the situation we are experiencing here., in Ukraine.
Right now I am located in kyiv. today is the day 14 of war, It's been two weeks. kyiv is surrounded on three sides. Only in the south is there still a humanitarian corridor for civilians to evacuate, but the other directions are occupied by Russian troops.
Unfortunately, humanitarian corridors do not work well. In recent days people are trying to leave Mariupol and Sumy, those two cities suffered bombings. Russia does not comply with the agreements in which the talks ended.
I would like to share some thoughts, impressions of how Ukrainian people react to the situation.
First, I would like to emphasize that there is no panic among the population, who are not in panic and are more or less calm. They united in the face of Russian aggression and this union has a massive character.. I would also like to highlight the high level of self-organization of the population, of the people. I would like to demonstrate it with an example about the shelter where I am located.. We solve the issues regarding the operation of the shelter in regular meetings between all of us.. We were able to arrange for them to provide us with food, water and toilet paper. The men were in charge of organizing who would guard the shelter from the outside.. I did not expect this high level of organization that the Ukrainian people now show. It should also be mentioned that territorial defense has a great role. They are civilian units that were organized in large cities..
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In kyiv the army handed him over 18.000 weapons for territorial defense, people are willing to defend their city. So far Russian troops have not been able to take any major cities.. Also because they know that they are going to have many losses, not only because of the resistance on the part of the Ukrainian army, by Ukrainian troops, but also because of the resistance of the people themselves.
As for the militants of my union, almost all the male members of the union obtained weapons and participated in territorial defense., in territorial defense units. Right now, The most serious situations are being experienced by the union colleagues in a city called Selidove in the Donetsk area.. It is a union of miners from an organization called“Selidove-ugol” and they are participating in the battles, in combat. I care a lot about them. Although we have many disagreements between the unions in Ukraine, we unite against Russian aggression.
A few days ago something serious happened, The Russian union organization showed its public support for Russia's intervention in Ukraine and that is why the Ukrainian unions asked the International Confederation of Trade Unions to exclude the Russian union from among its members..
Now I wanted to say a few words about the myths that Russian propaganda uses to justify aggression..
Before the intervention, Putin mentioned that Ukraine was created as a sovereign state by Lenin and the Bolsheviks and, because, now it would make sense“decommunize”. In other words, make Ukraine no longer exist as an independent state. Within this interpretation of Putin we understand that defending Ukraine, right now, It means defending Lenin's Bolshevik positions.
Another very big myth that Putin's propaganda uses to justify the war is that he is solving the issue"denazification" from Ukraine. I would like to remind my colleagues that the president of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky is Jewish.. further, all far-right parties in Ukraine from the year 2015 they get, only 2% of votes. It is evident that the term"denazification" does not make any sense in the context of Ukraine, according to common sense.
Ukraine is a normal state, weak, capitalist with a bourgeois democracy that we as the left do not support. But it is not a far-right state, fascist, ultranationalist as Putin says. According to the lie of Russian propaganda, anyone who defends Ukraine is a fascist, or a nationalist. It's chauvinist logic.
Another myth used by Russian propaganda is that the intervention is aimed at defending the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine.. I want to highlight a very important thing, The war has already been in our territory for 14 days and takes place, exclusively, in Russian-speaking territories. Russia is bombing city neighborhoods, is bombing civilians and they are Russian speaking civilians. In the occupied cities in the southeast of the country, people take to the streets and demonstrate against the Russian invasion. Once again I want to highlight that, especially, It is a Russian-speaking population that does not want Russian troops there and openly tells them that they are not welcome.. Right now, It is evident to us that Putin, before the intervention, was based on a false analysis about the position, what the Russian-speaking population of our country thinks and wants. I can understand analysts, They are the Russians who made the reports with the words that Putin wanted to hear and read. But they are false facts. They are not true.
Putin wanted to carry out a “blitzkrieg”, blitzkrieg, in three days, but it didn't come out. The more days they are in Ukraine, more hatred and rejection they generate from the population. Prolonging the war does not help people support them or understand their logic of freeing Russian speakers from nationalism or fascism in Ukraine..
I believe that our political position on the part of the Ukrainian Socialist League has so far been and is the most correct. We were among the first, in declaring that Ukraine has become the territory where two imperialisms clashed. On the one hand, from Russia and on the other hand from the West. In this context I am remembering the discussions between colleagues that took place at the International Congress, between comrades from Ukraine and between comrades from Lebanon, to whom I send many greetings. At that time we talked about how world imperialism works, we talk about its structure.
I would like to highlight that the LIS correctly states that the imperialist forces, the imperialist world, has changed in recent years. Leftist organizations around the world are used to confronting Western imperialism that in recent years 60, 70 years has dominated the world. And it's fair, NATO's role is still there, and we do not remove it from our international agenda. On the other hand, The imperialist world has become complicated in recent years, new agents appeared globally and regionally. Above all, They are young and very aggressive imperialisms like China and Russia. It is very important that the LIS highlights in its statements that two imperialisms confronted each other in Ukraine., the Russian and the Western. I have to say that not all of the left is psychologically and theoretically prepared to confront, to fight, to Russian or Chinese imperialism. The tradition of criticizing NATO continues, but not to the new imperialisms. I would also like to highlight that even leftist organizations that admit that these two imperialisms collided on the territory of Ukraine limit their analyzes and the defense of Ukraine is not on their agenda.. The idea of conflict between these two imperialisms that we now see on the territory of Ukraine is still there., But the situation has changed a lot in the last two weeks.. What we need now is this understanding, We need to understand how exactly this conflict and the struggle of the two imperialisms is resolved., look at it in detail. In the Ukrainian and Russian language there is also a proverb, a phrase that means “the devil is in the details”.
Many left-wing organizations say yes, that there is a conflict, a fight between two imperialisms in Ukraine, but we are not willing to support any. and to no one, nowhere. But let's look at the real situation, the current, who started a war against whom?
Russian imperialism, a very important imperialism with a well-equipped army, in a modern way he started a war against a weak state, little, capitalist, but not imperialist.
let's look, to analyze how Western imperialism behaved in this situation. For your understanding, before the war. THE. had only sent 100 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine, but there was a huge scandal, as if he had sent a lot of weapons. For two weeks now, President Zelensky has been calling on NATO to close Ukrainian airspace and defend the Ukrainian people.. But, What does NATO answer to us?? He responds that “well, dear friends, this is your problem, your conflict and we do not want to participate in it, "We are not a part of the war.". Our president says: “vale, okay, if you don't want to close the airspace, please provide us with, send us the old planes from the Soviet era that are still at the disposal of countries like Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland and Romania because it would help us a lot to fight Russia.”
The representatives of the NATO countries respond that they cannot provide the planes because that way, automatically, would participate in the war.
With this example I wanted to show a key idea, that in Ukrainian society there is enormous disappointment with NATO. I believe that we, socialists, We should take advantage of this situation when citizens really see that Western imperialism has no difference with Russian imperialism.. They are completely disappointed.
I would like to highlight that the LIS was among the first organizations thatpublicly declared “No to the intervention of Russian imperialism”. I think that this position “no to imperialism”, no to Russian intervention” separates us, stands out from other centrist and reformist groups. I would like to exemplify this idea. It is clear that, If an imperialist country invades another non-imperialist country, your competent imperialist, we are talking about NATO, the US. THE, will support the victim. It is very important that we talk about stopping imperialist aggression because otherwise our position, our positioning is going to be pro-imperialist. For example, If North American imperialism is going to invade Cuba or Venezuela, and Russia in support, he is going to send them five missiles, That's going to prove a lot of things.. And then the pseudo left would say: It is a fight between North American and Russian imperialism., we are against both, and we are not going to support anyone, and this is not normal, it is a pro-imperialist position in any case. Of course in this case we are not going to stop criticizing fairly, to the governments of Venezuela and Cuba, but at the same time we are going to speak out against North American aggression.
So the situation of Russian imperialist aggression against Ukraine is the same situation, It's something very similar. Our Ukrainian Socialist League as members of the LIS does not stop fighting and speaking out against the bourgeois and capitalist State, of Zelensky and his government. But the fact, the situation of military aggression of Russian imperialism against a weak state, dependent, although capitalist like Ukraine, makes us say in a very clear way that we are against this aggression and that we can only hope that they lose, May Russia lose.
To end, I would like to express that we are very grateful on behalf of the Union and our colleagues from Ukraine, grateful for your support, from all countries on behalf of the LIS, for the solidarity you show us, thanks a lot!
Alejandro: Thank you Oleg, because the truth is that having the possibility of having a person who, from the scene of the events, tells us what is happening and, at the same time, clarifies very well a revolutionary position, for us it is very important. I want to clarify that many of the questions received are answered in the articles and documents that we have been publishing., that we have been building them together with Oleg and the LSU. The positions of the LIS have been built in a permanent dialogue with colleagues. Thus, If any question is not answered - because I have to 30 O 40 questions they have asked in chat- bueno, They can then be read in some of those materials.
1) The first question had to do with the issue of self-determination of the Donbass and what we think about it.We obviously support the possibility of self-determination of Donbass, just like Crimea. We do not agree with chauvinism, neither ukrainian nor russian. But there are problems to solve. Unfortunately, imperialism did not give an opportunity to realize their right to self-determination to the populations of Crimea and Donbass. Instead, he occupied them, occupied those territories militarily, with military intervention. The situation was like this: first the Russian military forces intervened and then the second referendum took place, in a context, in a situation of military intervention already present.
My basic education is jurisprudence, I am a lawyer, I know it perfectly, within international law, even if it's bourgeois, referendums held in occupied territories are not recognized. Let's imagine that in year 1941 German Nazis hold a referendum in the occupied territories, that had been occupied until Moscow, this is absurd!
So a preliminary condition, fundamental, is that the Russian army leaves this territory and then self-determination can occur. That does not mean that Ukrainian troops are there. No, could be an international control, some neutral observers, international and under these conditions carry out a referendum, without any imperialist pressure on the citizens, so that they can freely express how they want to live. As socialists our objective is not to maintain the territory, keep these regions within Ukraine. Let them decide.
2) The second issue had to do with the phenomenon of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, its real weight.It must be recognized that the current political agenda in Ukraine is very right-wing. In the current Parliament, left-wing parties or left-wing deputies are not represented, there are only right-wing centrists, right-wing liberals, right-wing conservatives. All right.
The Ukrainian parliament, which is called the Verkhovna Rada, is formed from 450 MPs. In the last elections only one deputy from the right-wing party “Savoda”, (Freedom if we translate it into Spanish) entered parliament, only one woman among 450 parliamentarians. All votes to radical right parties, far right, They didn't get more than 2% of all the votes. Far-right forces are not an agent of the political process.
The royal agents, on the political scene in Ukraine there are two groups. On the one hand, the oligarchy of national capital, of the big capitalists. The other group is the pro-Western, we could call them the liberal right, that are in conflict with the first group. In this political scenario there is no place for the extreme right, They are not agents of the political process.
I want to repeat that our president Zelensky is Jewish, former minister Groisman, He was also Jewish. This means that citizens en masse vote for the representatives of the Jews., So what neo-Nazism are we talking about?? I am completely convinced that this idea about neo-Nazism in Ukraine is a construct of Russian propaganda, which aims to justify and give an excuse for the aggression they are carrying out.
3) The third question was about self-defense, the participation of Ukrainian citizens.I have to say that territorial defense units are a unique phenomenon.. The truth is that I did not expect it, and it is a very optimistic sign, it seems to me.
There were queues and queues, of kilometers of young men who wanted to enroll in these territorial defense units. Inclusive, They couldn't accept everyone. They said: "We're sorry, “We exceed the limit of the number of people we need four times”.
It was organized this way: weapons were distributed among young people, and they signed a commitment that after the war, they had to return them. They wrote down their passport information and such., it was official. In this way a popular militia was formed, a popular resistance.
In principle these people, they live in their houses, but if necessary they organize themselves into their units. The types of weapons they have are light weapons, but also Javelin anti-tank weapons.
These people are very motivated to defend their cities, defend their families, They are truly heroes and I am very proud of them..
4) The fourth question has to do with President Zelensky, if it has become more popular.He had already said that Putin was planning a quick war, “blitzkrieg” and I thought Zelensky was going to flee and leave kyiv. The Americans also offered Zelensky a plane to escape, already on the first day of the war. Now there is going to be a slightly sexist joke, but in Ukraine they say “it turned out that Zelensky does have balls”.
Now there is no talk of future presidential elections because Zelensky demonstrated very positive personal characteristics. I also have to say that we, the left, we are waiting for you, unfortunately, after the war, citizenship, the population is going to unite before the figure of Zelensky. And there is going to be a very patriotic agenda, that it will be difficult for us to make proletarian and class propaganda.
Only in the fall of last year did we have the opportunity to update the social agenda in Ukraine, carry out a strike and a union struggle, against the government's neoliberal agenda. And Putin's aggression nullified all the successes we had last year. A rather difficult situation awaits us in facing the patriotic agenda that, surely, is going to take place after the war; try to minimize this agenda and update social issues.
5) The Ukrainian army is very small, Russian is very big, evidently. And technologically, Ukrainians do not have very modern weapons, we kept the weapons of the USSR that they left us after 1991. But I have to say that, already during 14 days, we are resisting against one of the largest armies in the world; our small army is resisting and continues to do so. Ukrainian warriors are very, very motivated and are truly heroes.
I consider that Russia failed to carry out a quick war, and "blitzkrieg", It's already a victory, a victory for us. And we were able to reach negotiations, start a negotiation process. The people are very mobilized, is very united, and as I had said before, even in cities occupied by Russian troops, People protest and express that they do not want “their liberation.”, who do not want to be liberated” and want them to leave.
6) I will continue with the question about the negotiations. We have had three rounds of negotiations so far. In the second round, the two sides agreed not to give much information to the media., so that negotiations can be successful.
Currently in question is the organization of humanitarian corridors so that civilians from occupied cities can evacuate.. In the latest negotiations they reached an agreement to establish these corridors.
About the political issues at issue in the negotiations, It is very difficult to predict what they can agree on.. In my own opinion, President Zelensky himself is disappointed with the idea, has been disappointed with NATO and is likely to take the idea out of the constitution, the plan to join NATO. On behalf of our LSU we would support this decision, It seems very appropriate to us, very coherent.
I will remind you of the context, as I had also said before, NATO does not defend Ukrainian cities. No plans to close airspace. It does not provide the Soviet planes that our Ukrainian pilots know how to handle. Then he walks away from the conflict, of war.
7) Whether NATO will be able to take advantage of this war. It is a complex issue, because NATO is no longer such a united organization, Inside there are different groups, with different interests.
As the first group, I would highlight the one that the US is part of., United Kingdom and Canada. I believe that for this NATO group war is beneficial in the geopolitical sense and yes, is in line with your interests.
The second group is made up of the majority of European countries, especially ancient democracies, like Germany and France. These countries have more relationship with Russia from the point of view of trade and economy. Above all, Germany if we talk about oil and gas, This country depends a lot on Russian gas and that is why it loses a lot right now.
The third group is young democracies: Rumania, Bulgaria, the baltic countries, the Czech Republic and others. For these countries, war is also beneficial because they will be able to take advantage of this idea of the Russian threat and ask for more military and economic support from the European Union.. So strategically it is something positive for them..
The last NATO group is Türkiye, It is a very complex topic and apart. President Erdogan carries out a very complex international foreign policy. On the one hand, tries to be friends with Russia and buys its anti-aircraft defense system. On the other hand, sells weapons called Bayraktar to Ukraine. Then he positions himself in a mediator role.. He also proposed Turkey as a territory for negotiations between Ukraine and Russia.. So we could say that Türkiye could also take advantage of the war, because in the arms market, its Bayraktar weaponry increases in price because it has been seen to be very effective, then it will surely be in high demand.
8) To end, I want to give a message to Russia and other countries, from the workers of Ukraine.The LSU is completely against any expression of Russophobia, even in the context of war, we think it is not appropriate. We would like to call on the workers of Russia not to be afraid of Putin's authoritarian regime, to take to the streets, to participate in anti-war protests.
We have received the information, about whatmore of 5.000 Russian activists have been detained for participating in the protests. Clearly not much compared to the entire population in Russia, but it is also very important that they speak out publicly, and show that they are willing to fight against the regime. Who speak out against Russian aggression against Ukraine. We want to thank a lot on behalf of the workers of Ukraine.
We should stand together with Russia's comrades in this fight against Putin and his imperialism. I would like to remember that the Russian revolution took place in Saint Petersburg, which is clearly Russia, and that its actor Leon Trotsky was born in Ukraine. So we were together 1917 and we have to be together 2022, against imperialism and fight Putin, fight him. Y, addressing the workers of other countries, I want to tell you that we must intensify solidarity with the Ukrainian people, which is right now in a very difficult situation under the bombings. Hundreds of civilians and soldiers die in Ukraine. Every rally, each solidarity demonstration is very, very important. We would like to thank you for this and we consider the role of the LIS very important., since it organizes these actions in different countries.
Greetings and thanks from Alejandro.
Clarification: At the time of publication of this transcript, the shelter where Oleg and his family are located is being closed due to the imminent arrival of Russian troops and the transfer to another region on the outskirts of kyiv..
